First off, congratulations to Derby for beating Leeds, against the odds, to get into the play-off final.
I have to say I’m glad they won, as I was seriously worried about facing Leeds and saw them as our biggest stumbling block.
That’s not to say that I think playing Derby will be easy, but hey, give me a team we’ve beaten twice and put seven past without conceding this season, any time.
Whatever, it was a really good performance by the Rams and in the second half, they just didn’t give Leeds chance to breathe, let alone play.
It would seem that’s what we’ll have to try and do to them.
And then, there was an article in the Birmingham Mail which was followed up by 7500 to Holte (so a hat tip to them) where they noticed that a Twitter user had seen that the club’s owners have formed a shell company called NSWE Stadium Ltd.
Noone has mentioned it on here, but I find it interesting.
We’ve consistently been told by Christian Purslow, the CEO, that we don’t have a problem with FFP, yet many have failed to see why, as we’re surely way over the limits?
Could the reason be that the club is going to sell the stadium to our owners and then lease it back?
If so, to my mind, this is as legally bent as it gets.
You’re effectively selling the stadium to yourself.
Yet this sort of thing happens all the time in the financial world, as companies are seen as seperate entities from those who own them.
Indeed, it’s already happened in the English game.
It seems the powers-that-be are going to clamp down on this sort of thing, but we all know how slow they move and in my opinion it would be a restiction of trade anyway, so you would assume it’s still an option for us, should we fail to get promoted.
The big question for me, is what is Villa Park worth?
The club is valued at £75-125 million, take your pick, it’s all about how much someone wants it.
But given that Villa Park is renowned as one of the finest traditional stadiums in the world, let alone England, you have to wonder what it might be valued at.
You might laugh, but I’d suggest £200 million on paper isn’t out of the question, given some of the figures I’ve seen in the financial world.
Classic stadiums aren’t ten a penny, after all.
Of course, all this assumes we don’t get promoted.
If we do, it won’t matter, at least in the short term anyway.
I think it’s safe to say we ain’t going bump anytime soon.
Man City 6-0 Watford to win the treble.
Just goes to show you, money can buy you anything.
It’s embarrasing and very sad, imo.
Watched it Badger, it’s sad to see how far apart in football Watford was, not their fault it’s as your saying money can buy you fame. I think it’s something that will stick in payers mind for a very long time.
Badger I have seen the article about the formation of NSWE Stadium Ltd (NSWE being a company jointly owned by Sawiris / Edens) and the same thought occurred to me. Derby, I believe, did the very same thing last season and Steve Gibson shouted foul – I also think this is something done by Man City in the past. From an accountancy perspective why should there be any difference between selling to a company controlled by the owners (and leasing it back) and selling to a completely unrelated third party? The only possible (legal / FFP) questions would be around tax liabilities, whether the sale price is inflated and whether the lease arrangements constitute a ‘special arrangement’ (i.e. not in line with normal commercial terms being unfairly financially beneficial to AV) and surely both can be independently verified. OLL may have a take on the legality of any such deal. As you also suggest this may be a contingent arrangement should we not get promoted.
As far as FFP is concerned at March 2019 – which I believe has been cleared by the EFL – I read that what got us over the line was a contribution from HS2 in respect of Bodymoor Heath (apologies for the pun 🙂 )
Selling the stadium to a company owned by the owners of the FC is perfectly legal. Whether it deliberately flouts FFP is another matter. It depends how tightly FFP is defined in EUFA’s rules.
An advantage of doing so is the funding of stadium expansion. Suppose Villa got promoted and can see mid-table teams like West Ham and Newcastle pulling in attendances of 58000-65000. You might think that Birmingham could support a stadium with that capacity. But it will cost a lot of money whether a new stadium is bulit or the old one expanded. That won’t be a drag on the FC if they are only leasing a ground, it will be a speculative development by the NSWE Stadium Ltd.
Good point OLL. Interestingly though, I believe (although not claiming to be an expert on FFP) that investment in stadium expansion / improvements are excluded from FFP calculations. Your point still stands notwithstanding.
Another consideration would be – were Sawiris / Edens to sell their interest in the FC they would retain ownership of the stadium and the benefit of the lease.
There is only one thing that concerns me regarding the sale of Villa Park is whether we are renamed in the process. It would be like selling our soul. Likewise renaming stands won’t go down well with fans expect for maybe the North Stand if it finally gets rebuilt. If it’s just a clever way of raising funds outside of FFP then I don’t have any issues if it’s all legal and above board.
Changing topic, yesterday’s FA Cup final was a reminder of all that is wrong with the premier league. Watford are a team sitting comfortably in the top half and they were made to look like a non league team. If we got promoted we would have to accept we would be fighting to reach 7th at best but more realistically aiming to get to 40 points before season ends. Fans will be downbeat because we are losing more than we are winning and there will be those calling for Smiths head because we do have a fickle fanbase. Maybe the owners will invest but we will then be a ‘bought’ team in the way Citeh, and Chelski have become which doesn’t sit well with me. I used to like F1 but just like football, Sky are killing it and have created 2 teams with the wealth and resources who will dominate for the unforseeable future. I think what I’m trying to say is I really do prefer the championship! Just a shame the premier league isn’t on the same equal footing.
If we go up, we need to spend a lot of money just to stand still. Getting on for 100mill just to keep (if this is how we go and clubs willing to sell) Mings, Abraham, Hause, Axe and El Ghazi and replacing those who’s contracts are ending Adomah, Hutton, Jedinak, Whelan. That’s before we try to get better
Loans a possibility and I would love to see some of the youth getting squad places but it will be hard next season and we have to be patient
If we stay down then we have the added burden of Grealish going and maybe others but that will close down financial fair play concerns and Smith will have to show what a good coach he is S per Norwich losing their best player
Whatever happens it will be tough but could be fun
Unwanted players are set for a payrise if we get promoted..
Man, does that stick in the craw;
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/aston-villa-face-paying-promotion-16168803
Badger, the one that really hacks me off is McCormack and the one that I have no major problems with is Lansbury given that he’s had seriously bad luck with injuries and I think he’s a decent player.
Having said that I think Villa would be perfectly happy shelling out £4m if it means promotion and an (allegedly) £180m payday following which we can also afford a taxi for McCormack!
Look on the bright side, at least Flabby Gabby isn’t on the payroll anymore.
Has Richards finally gone too? What a waste of a potentially brilliant career.
Tax avoidance. If the stadium is owned overseas, it’s tax liabilities won’t be subject to British tax laws. Same as Google, Facebook, Apple etc. Shameful if we get the club involved in this sort of practice.
Everyone hates paying tax, but it’s essential if we’re to have a solid social infrastructure, schools, NHS, military, roads etc.
Not the case Bum Bum. It would be nigh impossible to structure a business whose income derives from ownership of a property in UK which it rents to a UK tenant so that it is not liable to CT.
But if the shell company is off shore, and leases the stadium from there, then as an example it wouldn’t be subject to VAT or CT for the profits it makes from the ground rent… Or bugger all tax if it’s in the Caymen Islands…
NSWE Stadium Ltd is registered with Companies House – directors Sawiris, Edens, Purslow and Xia. I very much doubt whether there is any ‘tax avoidance’ issues here.
Imho this establishes the opportunity for a beneficial property deal – simples. NSWE acquire the asset of Villa Park and a beneficial lease deal with AFVC – in return AVFC receive a substantial (property backed) cash investment. Nawiris and Edens create a secondary property investment interest at arms length to their ownership of the football club thus providing them with a bale out option if necessary or in the event of a sale of the football club.
In theory of course 🙂
I agree about fair payment of tax, but the reality is this country lets big corporates get away with paying very little. There is little appetite to change that either.
I doubt it’s about tax avoidance too.
Villa is basically a Birmingham outfit, let alone a UK outfit and tax avoidance really wouldn’t go down well with the fans.
As has been suggested, it’s probably just a back-up plan in case we don’t get promoted and I doubt the owners would WANT to do it anyway, as it complicates things in meaning the club doesn’t own the ground.
It’s only on paper, of course, but what would the Villa be without Villa Park? is the point.
Anyway, let’s hope we don’t even need to do it.
The owners need to work around FFP. I’m not too concerned how they do it. I personally think an owner should be able to invest as much as they want, as long as they don’t saddle the club with debt.
Unaffordable debt DS – there is nothing wrong with the principle of debt – it’s where debt is allowed to spiral to a level that’s no longer affordable – vis Lerner ‘et al’. FFP appears to concentrate on accumulated losses the total of which seems to vary according to which league the club is in without taking into account shareholders funds and the ability to fund such losses – sorry riding my hobby horse again 🙂
Tbf to Sawiris and Edens they appear to be funding Villa through further share issues rather than loans so we are not in financial debt to our owners although we owe them a huge debt of gratitude. UTV
John Terry to Boro? Any thoughts?
https://talksport.com/football/efl/547090/john-terry-aston-villa-chelsea-middlesbrough-manager/
Well, Lampard’s done ok and everyone seems to be talking up Terry’s contribution at the Villa, although I’m not sure I see the reason for that.
If he wants to go, fair enough.
But I’m just getting the impression that it’s all about the media wanting/pushing the Lampard and Terry combo.
And I couldn’t care less about that.
Tbh, I’m more interested in Wes Eden’s comments about statistics and Moneyball (he likes the idea and says footy is behind).
My first reaction was that it didn’t help us in the slightest when we tried it.
But if you look at players like Vertout and Amavi etc, they’ve actually gone on to become good/more valuable players.
So maybe there is something in it.
I don’t think that using stats is ever a bad idea. However just buying players because they look good on paper and having no clear idea of the type of player needed and where they’d fit into a coherent team structure is where it goes wrong. I think that this was certainly the case with Amavi and Veretout. They were good players but we just didn’t know what to do with them.
I’d hope that Pitarch would be working closely with Smith to figure out what’s needed and then using stats as just one of the tools in making a decision on who to go for.
Tbf Edens does say that it also requires a ‘good eye and judgement’ but should be underpinned by data. I suppose it comes back to Bill Shankley’s great quote. ‘Is he a good player having a great game or a great player having a good game?’ – I suppose in today’s tech age you could argue analytics or data answers that question?
I don’t think much of this story. JT has had issues with the Ferdinand brothers, and his father blackened the family name. However JT has always been professional and loyal to the clubs he was with. Noticeable that he was turfed out as a player after last year’s playoff final, and 9 out of 10 people would not have returned to Villa even with a change of manager or owners following that. JT did. I don’t think he is even thinking of going anywhere until Monday is behind us.
I read we now have to contend with ‘Drake’s Curse’, courtesy of Wes Edens daughter, as well as Derby County.
Now you may scoff but don’t underestimate the power of mind games on performance levels, positive and negative – and footballers are known to be superstitious.
“Middlesbrough have stunned Derby by announcing their intention to sue the Championship club, days before the play-off final at Wembley.
Steve Gibson, the Middlesbrough owner, has taken drastic action in his dispute with Mel Morris by vowing to take legal action over what he insists are clear breaches of financial rules.”
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2019/05/24/exclusive-middlesbrough-sue-derby-alleged-breaches-offinancial/
Bad loser?
Strictly speaking, we all know Gibson is morally correct.
Selling the club to the owner and leasing back is well bent.
But I very much doubt it’s not allowed at the moment.
Hence Derby have played within the rules as they stand and imo, he will lose the court case.
Bad loser?
I wouldn’t say so really, but he should have played the same game if he was so worried.
It’s interesting to note that some of the clubs actually asked for the rules to be relaxed, according to the Brum Mail.
I’d bet Villa were one of those clubs.
FFP is a great idea, but the way it works at the moment is wrong and I think if an owner can guarantee the funds they’re spending are available, they should be allowed to do what they want.
But then, you’re moving to a situation where the bigger clubs consistently have the better chance of winning the league, which is exactly what I detest about the Premier league.
almost there now after the longest week in history ends. dangerous derby will be a match for us you can be sure of that. i see lots of villa fans saying we beat them twice and by x amount of goals unanswered. that wont mean squat come monday.
i didn’t foresee them beating leeds, but i watched both games hoping they would. first game thou they lost they matched up to leeds really well and caused them problems with they quick counters and deep runners like mount and wilson. 2nd leg they went for the match more playing two up top and that caused leeds more trouble. plus they continued to break the leeds pressing with fine forcing deep runs from their midfield
i expect them to play the same formation and style as in their 2nd leg against us. they will try to pin us back and not allow our defenders to play out from the back. but they wont press high from midfield. they will leave two up against our 3 back. they will hit us hard from deep, meaning our three midfield will have to track back with their men. i think the midfield battle will be vital to deciding the victors
villa will have to step it up against derby we were poor against wba. or baggies were really good at cancelling us out. they stopped our defence playing out. and they denied us space to attack which derby wont do. against leeds they were magnificent but leeds had many many chances to finish them off and wasted them. we will have to take the chances when they arrive and their will be many chances as derby are not solid at the back and their midfield empty when they counter meaning they are very vulnerable.
early prediction last one of the season so i must get this right. 3 1 villa hourihane gets the opener. rasping freekick
To be honest I’m worried sick, we all know these matches an go anyway and not for the faint hearted, it’s all about fitness and willingness to win on the day. Theirs a lot at stake on this game for certain players and open window for other’s, no prediction from me I’m a picture of bad luck. I’ll use the old saying, may the best team win. Utv.
Don’t worry so Bill. We’re the better team on paper and we’ll be the better team on the day. In their heart of hearts every Derby player will know that we can beat them and every Villa player knows that they can win. That counts for something.
A play off final is no novelty for us whereas for most of Derby this will be their first time.
I predicted both play off semis correctly and I’m going for a relatively easy win for Villa.
COYL
Bill, maybe It’s an age thing – I don’t know – but I’m really worried!