Some of you might be old enough and perhaps a bit zany, like me, in having been Python and particularly Eric Idle and Rutles fans.
In which case I’m going to quote George Harrison and say “I’m shocked and stunned. Stunned, very stunned.”
This is how good I thought we were.
It was all quite strange, really.
The first 20 minutes bored me witless and it was like both sides were checking each other out and I was moaning like mad that it was all too slow and lazy.
But then I began to see another side to our game.
On the face of it, all we do is pass backwards.
But then I began to realise that West Ham had absolutely no answer to the way we were playing.
Teams are geared to the opposition going forward and attacking. But we didn’t do that.
I expected Moyes to counter our game somehow at half time, but he didn’t, which I find intriguing, because he’s no mug.
I’m not convinced it’s a system that will win all the time, but we actually outdid Spam’s midfield in any metric you like put out there, regardless of anything that the likes of Sky might say.
I haven’t seen anyone else say this yet, but I will;
I was in a bar full of Spammers.
I told them they’d just been taught a footballing lesson by a really good manager, who’s managing a very good side, that’s only going to improve.
And not one of them disagreed.
Make no mistake about this.
West Ham were spanked today.
Maybe we’re not as bad as I think we are, after all.
Anyone else harping back to the Sir Ron days?
I think what I should have said, is that Emery called this game perfectly.
Where was their wing play?
Their whole game plan was taken out and as much as I’ve moaned about Emery at times, so I’m happy in congratulating him on a tactical masterpiece.
“Anyone else harping back to the Sir Ron days?”
A bit, but at the moment I was more reminded of Graham Taylor’s 1st spell at VP, or even John Gregory’s time.
I’ll take either, Ardent.
It was a different game under Ron and as much as I liked it, so I think I’m slowly beginning to see a different side.
And this Unai fella knows how to play it.
As I said, Spam were SPANKED today, physically and tactically and Moyes will be wondering how.
That happens very rarely and makes me think we’re seeing the inklings of a proper challenging side.
Even if I continue to moan 🙂
Moaning is a fan’s prerogative and long may it continue!
How good is this team, how far can they go and how good is Emery as a coach – and I use the word coach deliberately rather than manager.
I don’t know the answer to any of those questions but I’m enjoying watching Villa more now than (apart from the odd game – if you can call winning the European Cup – an odd game 🙂 ) at any time than I can recall over the last sixty years.
Long may it continue UTMV.
A huge amount has changed since the 1970’s (& not just in football…) which makes comparison a bit difficult. I’ve been reminded of that reading the obits for Bobby Charlton.
IMO he was probably the best player England have ever produced, but then how do you compare his era (60’s/70’s) with say – Stanley Matthews’ before him, or (say-) Paul Gascoigne’s afterwards?
And I think the same applies to managers…
That’s a complex argument.
Would the Liverpool of Rush, Dalglsh, Souness beat Man City of today?
I’d say depends on the rules, the pitches, the tackle from behind?
Indeed there’s an endless number of factors and then I feel no one would agree.
Today’s generation would back the modern game.
Us oldies probably think this generation wouldn’t deal with the physicality of yesteryear.
Played by today’s rules they’d probably get spanked.
Who knows?
So it is with managers but anyone who reaches the apex of the sport in their time needs ( imo) to be treated with the same reverence as today’s winners.
Or is that just me being an old git?
That’s a boringly good point.
We’re all old gits on here and I do my best to encourage young kids, but proper debate seems beyond them.
They don’t know any different and are probably asking “Who the f is Bobby Charlton?”
In today’s game any team you care to call out as excellent would probably be beaten by any Prem team today.
Because they wouldn’t understand why the fannies kept falling over at the hint of a touch.
Too true.
The biggest changes IMO are: today’s billiard-table pitches compared to the mud and sand ones back in the day (although Chelsea seemed to be trying to go retro when we played there a few weeks ago-) and the refereeing (by which I also include the play-acting for ‘injuries’).
Can you imagine Norman Hunter & co from the dirty Leeds team of the 1970’s surviving endless VAR reviews – or for that matter even Evans & McNaught from Sir Ron’s team…?
“Who the f is Bobby Charlton?”
I have often thought about this.
Back in the 70’s when I was a slip of lad attending my first games there was probably some old fellas that had saw and held in esteem the likes of Billy Walker and Pongo Waring.
They were their Brian Little or Andy Lochead?
” Who the F is Billy Walker”
They probably thought the same of us?
“
Villa’s game plan under Emery seems to be to bore the opposition into surrender. Trouble is it bores the fans too.
Every few minutes of excitement is preceded by 15 minutes of mind numbing nothingness. Players look for the safest, least daring pass, usually sideways or backwards. It’s infuriating to see a crossing opportunity ignored in favour of a return to the halfway line. It’s gutless, safety first football. Possession just for the sake of it. The results are undeniably excellent. But the style if play is sleep inducingly awful.
I was saying the same – last season – but we’ve scored 23 goals in just 9 prem matches so far this season: that’s more than Mancs, Arsenal, L’pool, Spurs and Brighton (OK, Spuds have only played 8 so far). Only Newcastle have scored 1 more.
We can hardly describe that as ‘safe’ or ‘boring’.
It’s a quandary for sure Ardent. We are seeing the best results and goals for many years. And when the team string it together it’s a joy to watch. But the other 75 minutes of tedium are a high price to pay. And playing out from the back is frazzling my nerves. Ditto, Martinez playing chicken with oncoming forwards then rushing a pass to a defender who is tightly marked. I’ll never understand it or like it.
It’s called controlling a football match, John. Enjoy it.
Youre right BFR, it IS controlling the match. But It’s throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Football is supposed to be entertaining and exciting. Endless sideways possession on the halfway line is not entertaining or exciting and certainly not enjoyable.
IS that what football is supposed to be? Is that historically true? Yes, you and I may like it to be buccaneer-style and if you’re content with a mid-table finish then so be it. But we, I think, would prefer to see Villa up with the other latter-day achievers that have won everything since 1992! Even in the Cups our attempts in the 4 finals have been largely pathetic since 2000.
If you have a George Best or two in your team that can scythe through packed defences that would be great, but I don’t think that level of skill is quite there yet at Villa.
For what it’s worth, the great Villa teams of long ago did not always play the buccaneer-style game. There are many records of how the old Villa had to tactically play their way through a game in order to win it.
For the record, I didn’t see that much of the sidewards-backwards play by Villa in the West Ham match and, as I say, they only do it when they see a packed defence in front of them. Hence, until Villa obtained the lead through some intelligent passing Villa, (i.m.o.) were entitled to play a patient game.
I prefer that approach than play the gung-ho style only to lose the ball for the opponent to break away and score.
It’s about time we re-asserted Aston Villa as a great club by actually winning trophies rather than pussy-footing around. In my opinion!
Importantly, the Villa are quietly re-gaining the respect of the football world in a way not seen since Ron Saunders. I liked BFR, but he never won a really major trophy did he (other than the FA Cup – the FL Cup is never the same to me)?
“Is that what football is supposed to be ?”
You don’t think football is meant to be exciting and entertaining ?
That’s an odd viewpoint. What’s the alternative ?
I don’t understand the prevailing mindset on here that possession football equals success while ‘buccaneer’ football equals failure.
Bucaneer doesn’t have to mean blindly punting the ball upfield in hit and hope style. To me it means having more bravery and adventure and not spending ten minutes in the centre circle making safe three foot passes while the fans read their programmes for something to do. You are right in saying Villa don’t have the players to scythe through packed defences. Even if we did they probably wouldn’t be allowed to do it under the current masterplan. (Grealish at Man City being an example.) But nor have we got the players to play possession football. I’ve had heart attacks watching us mess about at the back and give the ball away. Ditto with Martinez playing chicken then urgently passing to a tightly marked defender who loses the ball.
Ultimately, sport is all about differing opinions. ‘You pays your money and takes your choice.’ My opinion is that possession football is boring – even if the results are excellent.
John, with respect, your comments seem to suggest that we’re watching the finished article. I’m sure it’s not. Emery’s work is evolving and so far it’s mostly been successful. I’m sure he knows there’s still a good deal of improvement to be achieved.
Whether buccaneer football wins trophies (other than domestic Cups) is a moot point if you don’t have the players to successfully execute that approach. In the meantime I’m content to be bored for 15 minutes of the match if it means winning by 3, 4 or 6 goals.
Thanks Chronicler,
Granted it is early days yet. After just one year, Emery has turned us from relegation to European candidates. There is no denying he is a genius. (A flawed genius in my humble opinion.) Possession football is here to stay. It is not just the Emery way, it is the modern football way. We will surely improve with better players and a few seasons of practice. But even watching other teams do it leaves me cold. Maybe we should resume this debate in a year or two when we’ve won the Champions League. Hopefully we’ll do it with exciting one touch passing football and not too much time spent in the centre circle. Vive La Difference !
Luv the comment about winning the Champions League next year! That’s tongue-in-cheek I’m sure, but I do believe it can only get better.
You’re right BFR. It is controlling the match. It is also like watching paint dry. Football is supposed to be entertaining and exciting. Endless keep ball on the halfway line is neither, and certainly nothing I can enjoy.
Sorry for the double post. There doesn’t seem to be a way to edit or delete !
Sorry John but there’s no way I can agree with your summing up.
Let’s go back to Remi Garde when villa played with absolutely no identity, we looked like a bad Sunday morning outfit ultimately leading to relegation.
Enter potato Head and his championship Globe trotters, buying anyone of any consequence in that division and still playing like a bunch of disorganised amateurs.
Enter Smithy, a vast improvement gets us were we need to be but all a little hit and miss, from the sublime to the ridiculous, no consistency.
But still, thank you Smithy.
Enter Mr G – enough said.
Enter Saint Unai –
Matches 85 – Wins 46 – Draws 18 – Losses 21 – Win % 58.54
62 points from 31 games – 154 goals for – 109 against.
John, add some silverware and it’s about as good as it gets.
I can’t argue with the results or your assessment of previous managers. But I will never enjoy safety first keep ball. It makes my teeth ache.
NB. Ref silverware. Emery threw away one of our best chances of silverware by fielding a weak side against Everton. He’s done it in Europe too. We have no strength in depth which is a worry.
NB. Potato Head bought us John McGinn for £2m. So he’s saved from total damnation.
And nota bene more 😁
John, that’s exactly as I see us.
It can be tedious watching us and I’m usually the first to call it out.
But as Ardent says, we score for fun, the same as many think Ollie is total rubbish.
I find it hard to explain.
If we were a bit more swashbucking in our style I actually think we couuld win some of those red manc fans over.
Because that really is a bag of shite.
Sorry but I disagree with John’s comments. I think it’s 17 goals in the last four home games – how much boring can it get?
I really don’t find our style of play boring. What Emery demands is control of the game not some harem scarum approach that hands the initiative to the opposition. It’s not just sideways / backwards without purpose as in the past – it’s designed to suck the opposition forward – it has real purpose.
I enjoy the controlled, skilful approach which then allows us to unleash these bursts of exciting attacking football. Just look at how Villa exploited the spaces in West Ham’s mid field and defence.
Watch the best sides in World football – that’s how they play.
And as an aside the Diaby / Watkins partnership has created 17 chances – light years ahead of any other partnership in the Prem – so exactly what are we doing wrong?
Perhaps there are those who would prefer us to attack willy nilly and lose. I want us to win every single game.
UTMV
Ah, a debate!
It is tedious, although I’ve hinted that I could see a plan unfolding today.
I like Unai and want him to get it right.
But at the same time I think he can also call it seriously wrong.
We’ve been outplayed a couple of times in Europe, for a start.
If goals were all that mattered, I’d be minded to agree with you Hitch.
We ain’t quite there yet, imo, but I’d be very happy to be proved totally wrong.
The most exciting game I’ve seen under Emery was last season when we thrashed Newcastle at home. It was strange. For one game only, we abandoned safety first keep ball and just played ‘old fashioned’ blood and thunder football. It was exciting and thrilling to see. And it worked. Then it was back to normal in later games.
I know which I prefer.
I was at the Newcastle game, John. It was brilliant. But were the Brighton and West Ham games so different to that game? We’ll have to check the stats. Some one mentioned that when you’re at the match it feels different. Were you there on Sunday?
Yes BFR, I was at the Brighton & Hammers games. Both brilliant results. I expected the West Ham game to be a draw or a very tight win to Villa so 4-1 was a happy shock. I’m starting to have more faith in the results (decades of dashed hopes eventually seeps into your bones) but still not a fan of possession football.
For the first time in ages I was in the Holte for the Brighton game with both of my sons, who are now in their 30’s and whom I’ve been taking to VP for over 25 years.
In all the games they’d been to over the years, I think there was one (Derby County…) where we actually scored 4 or 5 goals – but they’d never seen us score 6.
They were exstatic, I was totally blown away.
The atmosphere in the ground was something that I certainly hadn’t experienced myself in the previous quarter-century, and really was a throw-back to the best days under Gregory, Big Ron, 1980’s Taylor, or even the 1970’s.
Watching on TV is different – you can linger on the ‘boring bits’; in the ground all you really come away with is the attacking play and goals, and we’re certainly seeing those at the moment.
Badger and John. Have a serious word with yourselves and give your heads a good wobble. Villa are making it look easy and that’s down to one man. The majority of the team is Smith and Gerrard’s. We’re scoring goals at will and creating copious chances. And there are still key injuries. And the newness of playing Thursdays in Europe. ‘Unai Emery walks on water’ raining down from the Holte would be highly appropriate. Stop moaning. Enjoy! You miserable sods!
UTV
As you say Badger – a good debate.
As fans we’ll see things differently and that’s part of the whole footballing experience.
Keep posting John.
Maybe I’ve been spoilt. I was ever present during the league winning days and I was in Rotterdam to see us win the European Cup. That team won silverware with exciting, exilerating football. And not just for ten minutes a game with 75 minutes of ‘controlling’ three foot passes in the centre circle. Maybe I’m a luddite but I think the modern game has a lot of the ‘Kings new clothes’ about it. I.e. People convincing each other that great results equals great football. I don’t think that is always so.. In Villa’s case, I love the results. I don’t love the manner in which they are achieved.
As one of the pundits said today you usually get teams that are good at attacking but they leak goals. Then you get teams who are good at defending but find goals hard to come by. Villa are good at both.
As for some above calling Villa ‘sleep inducing’ I have to 100% disagree. If the whole idea of the game is to score goals then we’re certainly doing that but we’re also managing the game as all the best teams do. I note that Man City were sometimes accused of the same thing at times but they haven’t done too badly, have they?
That’s a good shout, 1874.
It is indeed about outscoring the oppostiion.
I often say it myself and really shouldn’t forget it.
Pinched from the Birmingham Mail;
” Villa have now scored at least three goals in each of their opening four league matches of a season at Villa Park for the first time since 1920-21.”
That’s undeniable.
So why do I think we’re really not very good?
It’s a funny old game.
Perhaps because you’re wrong, Badger?
🙂
Heh, very possible.
In which case, I hope Emery keeps proving me wrong 🙂
And long my it continue Badger 😁
Unai is educating Villa players and us the fans. Before Unai we loved what I call “The Tony Daley” approach to football. It was fast, exciting but rarely had an end product!
Unai comes along and educates the players. Keep the ball but continually probe and weight to move opposition players out of position or wait for one of them to switch off and pounce. When Villa get this opportunity they go for it. Look at the number of goals we are scoring. 11 home wins on the trot, second only to Man City in Premier points in 2023 and in Europe.
I like Unai’s style of play. We play higher up the pitch and press the defenders and goal keeper into mistakes.
And just think this season all this has been achieved without 4 key players from last year: Mings, Moreno, Ramsey and Buendia. With Moreno and Ramsey to return in the next few weeks I expect us to become even better. The two together will strengthen our left hand side. Moreno with his ability to get behind the defence and Ramsey’s ability to run through defences.
So yes this is a different style of play, but it is superior to anything I’ve witnessed at Villa Park in the last 40 years. I’m
This debate is so interesting …. combined with the fact that we all seem to be wrinklies … that I feel obliged to join in.
I claim some seniority by having been witness to Danny Blanchflower back in 1953, and Tommy Thompson and Johnny Dixon to boot. My favourite-ever player was Gerry Hitchens – he remains firmly my number one and I wish that Ollie had a means of srudying Gerry’s game. Not that Ollie is a bad player – he most certainly isn’t.
But, yes, styles and playing conditions have changed so much. What I do miss is the level of sportsmanship – I saw a recording of Bobby Charlton in the 1966 semi-final v Portugal. After scoring a goal an opponent actually shook hands with him!
But as to the current Villa. They are getting themselves together. It’s not quite all locked together yet, but I do believe it can only get better. I like the ride.
As you might guess, Hitchens is also my all time favourite – was fortunate to see him score twice on my first ever visit to VP in 1960 (although we could only draw).
You were honoured! The game you saw might have been against Blackpool when Gerry chased down England’s right-back Jimmy Armfield, stole the ball from him and then cracked home a marvellous shot from a tight angle. Result 2-2 though, despite Gerry’s 2 goals.
There were two games for me that season that stood out. The first when beating Blues 6-2 (Gerry hat-trick). The second the last game of the season when Johnny Dixon was recalled for his last game and he played a blinder, with Gerry scoring 2 as well in a 4-1 win.
Up to that point Villa were a useful looking side that may well have won a trophy or two if Gerry had stayed. Him leaving interrupted development i.m.o.
Spot on – Blackpool it was – 2-0 up at half time if memory serves correct. Taken by my ‘uncle’ who blamed me for us not winning and vowed never to take me again 🙂
As he got older it was my privilege to take him – and yes, he did take me on many more occasions.
Great memories.
I don’t quite go back as far as Hitchens. So my favourite player would be a toss up between Willie Anderson (who came through Man Utd with George Best) or Brian Little. I think Little gets it. And his Villa team as a manager was one of the best to watch.
Gerry was just an out-and-out striker who I love above Little and others (like Cowans) because of his sheer single-minded approach to getting goals. 42 goals in season 1960-61, and his scoring of 10 goals over only 3 matches in 1959-60 is truly memorable.
Not so sure about Willie, but Little and Cowans (and Blanchflower) were great at a different level and I loved them too, but it was Gerry’s sheer character that causes me to think mainly of him.
But everyone has their own favourites.
Boring!!! I watch Formula One for the crashes, cock ups in the pits. I have always watched Villa but now you can’t take your eyes away waiting for those Rolls Royce moments. Zaniolo’s through ball inside the full back for Digne. McGinn’s controlled pass for Ollie to run on to and score. Ollie , not just once laying the ball back but twice, Konsa on their goal line winning a penalty and more and more and more. There are no mondays anymore.
I don’t know whether Badger & John are just playing Devil’s advocate here and winding us up, but if not, I think it’s time for some perspective.
It’s now late October (not two weeks into August) – and we’re already / only (depending on how you look at it) a quarter of the way through this EPL season.
We’re 5th in the table, but only 2 points off the top (Mancs & Arse), outscoring almost everyone else in the division – and no, I don’t think that any of the teams above us have had a ‘bad’ start to their seasons either.
As Sidforever has pointed-out, we’ve done this without 4 key players who would in the normal course of events have played most of the time in most of our EPL games.
And yet some people think we’re boring because we don’t play kick’n’run like everyone did back when we were all growing up.
Of course it could all go pear-shaped by next April…
In the meantime, think of what we’ve experienced between MON going in 2010 and Emery arriving a year ago: the games under McLeish (anti-football anyone?), Lambert, Garde, Di Matteo, Bruce (not all, tbf, but we were only in the Championship) and Gerrard.
I know which I prefer, so enjoy it while it lasts.
So definitely enjoying the debate on the style above, but a couple of things stood out to me yesterday…
Our set piece delivery is awful right now. Every single corner we get, I dread because the ball comes in low, misplaced and feel like we’re missing so many opportunities for danger. What happened to Dougie’s pinpoint accurate corners scoring goals for us? And I also HATE when we waste an opportunity for delivery, play it short and let someone else fluff the delivery in the box. If the plan was for them to deliver the corner, just let them take the corner! I don’t see the point.
Secondly, I was vocal about our defence from pre-season, watching Emery tweak things worried me. I was also seriously concerned about Torres’ ability to adapt to the league, but the last 3-4 games, I think he’s started to look really comfortable and the partnership between he and Konsa looks really strong. I actually thought Cash had a bit of an off-game yesterday and it seemed most of our play started at the centre-back and it really worked.
I’ve watched too many players with ACL injury just never get back to the player they were – so the above is really important to me, as I genuinely don’t think we’ll ever see Mings back to the player he was; which is heart-breaking to me as he’s one of my favourite players.
Definitely, they have tried to be a bit too-clever with some of the corners recently – like you, I think we’ve wasted a few.
And like you, I do fear that in Mings we’ve lost one of the most influential players we have, probably for good. By the time he’s fit-enough to play at all, he’s likely to find it quite difficult to get back into the team, against the likes of Torres, Carlos, etc.
While we’re talking about the defence: Digne and Cash may not be the most solid defenders ever (which I think was shown in the beating we took at Anfield) but they’re definitely adding to our attack. I’m sure that I saw a stat somewhere in one of the ‘papers’ over the weekend that said Digne has made more crosses into the box so far this season than anyone else in the league.
I’m old enough to remember that we had one of the original ‘wing backs’ in English football under Sir Ron – in the form of John Gidman; he could actually do both attack and defend pretty well, but I do recall some fans even back then saying that he should stick to one or the other!
Steve Staunton is my personal favourite for best wingback. If Roberto Carlos had scored the goals Staunton did, they’d been on every best goals compilation available…
I’d agree with that Tex, never quite the same and time isn’t on his side either.
I am staggered to read The Chronicler recalling football in 1953. That being the last coronation year – I was asked this year what I remembered about it apart from QE2 coronation. Answer: Chicken-pox and face-planting in the isle of a trolley-bus. The initial acceleration of 8 wheel electric traction a painful novelty to a kid who had only known diesel buses.
I agree with Ardent that today’s pitches make Villa’s style possible. We have improved at playing that way since the season started so the return games v Liverpool and Newcastle are eagerly awaited – can they tonk us again?
I did not find it boring! Prior to k.o. I was nervous – West Ham had been a real bogey team under Moyes. They started confidently but the Villa move that ended with Ollie dragging a shot wide shocked them because they had been taken apart without losing a physical challenge.
Texas makes a good point. Would Mings with one guaranteed gaffe per game get back in the side, or Buendia who gets brushed aside? Finally: Moreno – would he? Because Digne has been brilliant since he returned.
Digne has been a revelation. Can’t disagree there.
Possibly not (Moreno) but we could do with cover and choices at left back where we are vulnerable to an injury to Digne.
Digne has been brilliant going forwards all season; a large proportion of our play in recent games has been down the left, and he’s been at the heart of most of it.
All of which makes it seem strange that there were so many ‘rumours’ in the latter stages of August that Villa ‘wouldn’t stand in his way, etc.,’ if he was to go back to France.
Badger, I agree with you 100% And you are definitely not a lone voice.
I go to the matches with quite a few ‘youngsters’ – 19 up to 50ish.
They too are often bored and critical of the endless ‘keep ball.’ Like me, they get infuriated when the chance of a cross or an exciting pass are ignored for a safety pass back up the field. The lack of adventure, imagination or the bravery to try something daring has been replaced with robotic football that must follow the masterplan.
Yes, we get the occasional burst of excitement but the longwinded tedium to get there is unbearable.
As we’ve seen with Grealish at Man City, the mavericks who get fans out of their seats have it trained out of them until they become another clone passing sideways and backwards. I would guarantee that if a team played ‘old fashioned’ football, eg. Ferguson’s Man Utd or Keegan’s Newcastle, the fans would love it and realise how tedious the modern possession game is.
John, I fully understand what you’re saying but it simply does not work like that any more. If we tried that we’d be relegation candidates. It is sad, I agree, but better we succeed doing it the modern way than fail as we usually have in recent times trying to be something a. We don’t have the players for and b. Wily coaches and good players will exploit all day long. The style of play you’re looking for sounds something like a Mr Timothy Sherwood attempted. I’ll allow you to draw your own conclusions from that.
I’ve said elsewhere on here, I don’t understand the attitude that buccaneering football (for want of any other description) equals failure. To me, that betrays a defeatist attitude and also lacks imagination. A good coach playing that system with good players would be a match for most ‘possession’ teams. You are right, we don’t have the players to do it now but nor do we have the players for possession football. (A rock and a hard place.)
* I liked Sherwood and what he was trying to do. He wasn’t given a decent chance.
I’m lucky in actually knowing who “The Chronicler” is.
It’s because I see the Email addresses of anyone who posts (never passed on to anyone, no worries)
Trust me, it’s someone who has written about the Villa for a very long time and I feel very proud that he reads this blog/comment/moaning site.
Welcome sir. And feel free to add some debate!
Thank you for your warm welcome, Badger. There are some good heads logged in here so I don’t really see any moaning!
Back to footy.
John Read, you add some balance in not making me a lone voice.
I can’t get away from the the fact that yesterday, I was bored witless for the first 15-20 minutes.
I get that it was all very investigative and checking each other out or just plain getting back up to speed after the break.
But it was boring as hell. I commented similar in the last thread during the game.
I think exactly like John.
There was an instance where someone on the left had the ball and was looking for a pass. McGinn pointed to a player either further infield or over to the right, I’m not sure which, for him to pass to. But the ball still ended up going backwards. Why?
Because it’s how they’re being taught imo.
And while it’s obviously effective, it’s still bloody boring!
To be fair, once we upped the pace, we looked a much better team, playing to our strengths.
Don’t get me wrong.
I should clarify my position here.
I don’t think we’re rubbish, by a long shot.
Any team that wins 11 on the trot at home and is the second highest scorer can’t be.
But you can play with a swashbuckling style and still get results.
It’s what won Man U loads of fans years back and could easily do for us too.
When we actually stop messing about and attack we look frightening, much like Liverpool did not long back ,plain and simple. Hopefully the lads will come to realise it and use it.
As for Mings, it didn’t take us long to not miss him, did it?
I do sincerely hope he makes it back though.
He’s decent back-up.
Ahem 🙂
Badger, I’m going to take issue with you over Mings. Again.
Not because I think that he’s the best CB in the league – he isn’t, and as OLL mentioned a day ago ‘a gaffe in every game’ (which I think is a bit harsh, personally).
As I’ve said a few times; he is the real leader on the pitch, regardless of who wears the armband, and between him and Martinez the back 4 were usually well marshalled and he often drilled into the midfield what they had to do defensively.
I think that we’ve missed him badly, starting from the moment that he was injured in the Newcastle game. Torres, Carlos and Konsa are quality players, but the first two still aren’t really experienced in this league, while Konsa is just too quiet and doesn’t have the ‘presence’ of Mings.
The key phrase is ‘years back’, Badger. United did that with a rigid 442 system. And like that swashbuckling style of yesteryear, that system no longer works either. Coaches now are far more informed, far more tactical, and their attention to detail would leave the likes of Fergie and Big Ron scratching their heads. And probably made to look like mugs. I think the debate is essentially not about the Villa. It’s about modern football vs ‘the good old days.’ I hanker for the latter too. But those times aren’t coming back, sad as it is. Which is why I repeat, just enjoy this Villa for what it is now: an exciting, evolving and competitive team fit for the modern era.
UTV
Badger, all very well in theory if we had unlimited players who were actually cyborgs who can’t get injured and won’t ever get tired from the heavy fixture schedule. Unai manages each match accordingly and we also agreed recently that he’s managing the season. Even the very best teams don’t play full throttle for the whole match.
Anyway, a huge match away to Spurs at the end of November. Let’s hope we’re still in the mix in a month’s time. They are clearly benefitting from having no midweek European games this season…
That’s the ‘worry’ if we continue to progress in Europe although at this point in the season with a relatively small squad (primarily because of injuries) I think Emery will continue to ring the changes on Thursday.
I was listening to a MOMS podcast in the week and it was suggested that – following the owners remit – Emery is focussed primarily on qualifying for The Champions League particularly with the possibility of England being awarded a fifth qualifying spot this season.
Agreed. It’s clear from the European & cup games we’ve already played that we don’t have the quality in depth (and that is largely down to the big injuries we’ve already seen) that we need at the moment.
As soon as the likes of Olsen, Tielemans and Dendonker are named as starters, you know that we’re going to struggle in the game. Hopefully we will see Ramsey back soon, at least that will add more options, but I do worry that we still lack real quality cover for Cash and Martinez 9to name just two).
The days of Sir Ron using only 14-15 players across a whole season to win the league are unfortunately long gone…
I find this debate about ‘swashbuckling’ football a bit strange. Of course, the most important thing is that we’re winning and that we’re also scoring bucket loads of goals, but why do people find the way we play football unattractive?
Playing possession football generally wins games (and don’t cite Leicester as an example, they were a truly a once in a century phenomenon). It works for all the top teams just watch Bayern, Barca, Real and Man City for example.
What I don’t get is that I actually find this type of football attractive. It shows that here’s a team that knows what it’s doing and who are intelligent enough to follow a plan set by an elite manager. Passing sideways and backwards at times is 100% better than giving possession away and letting the opposition control the game. Of course, if that is all you did it would be boring. However, biding your time, controlling the game and then striking when the chance presents itself can IMHO be quite fascinating to watch.
It puts on display the skills of our players and the mastery of our manager so what’s not to like?
I’m just going to add one question;
Why was Grealish so revered and why is Ramsey so well liked now?
I’ll tell you my opinion.
It’s because they’re direct and hence exciting to watch. They get bums off seats. Why?
It’s because it’s what we want to see!
🙂
Exactly Badger.
But also because they are both ‘One Of Our Own.’
NB. Why did Man City buy Grealish ?
They’ve ruined him. He’s a shadow of the player he was.
And we do see it, Badger. So what’s the problem? Are we saying we want the whole team to play like Ramsey and Grealish??? One of those is usually enough in any team. Two a luxury. Three is suicide. See Mr Ardiles’ 5 strikers for Spurs in 1994. It’s fun but it wins f.all.
Ramsey is a totally different player to Grealish IMO. There’s no doubting Grealish for his ability but for me he was too relied upon and now Ramsey is someone who creates and if fit, will score more goals than Grealish.
We always cheer more for one of our own. Hopefully Ramsey won’t get his head turned when eventually he is called up for England. He could become a Villa legend which is something Grealish gave up on when joining the oil club.
On maverick players. I almost crashed my K reg Fiesta when I heard we’d signed Ginola in 2000. Gregory recently revealed in an article that when analysing the team’s running distances stats, he assumed the lowest was David James in goal, as the player had barely moved. It was ‘Daveed.’ John, this is why Pep has ‘ruined’ Grealish. You can’t get away with that shit if you want to win things. You couldn’t 20 years ago and you definitely can’t now. Times have changed. Be happy that the Villa finally have a manager who has the skill and drive a operate in the current climate. Enjoy. And when you feel nostalgic, YouTube is a good friend. I’ve just watched some 1991-92 highlights, Big Ron winning at Hillsborough on opening day. Happy days!
It’s a sad day if there is no room for mavericks in ANY sport. These are the people with outrageous skills and devil may care frame of mind who get punters out of their seats and get them through the turnstiles. What a grey world it would be without them. You are welcome to it BFR. I’d rather have some colour and daring in my sportsmen & women.
We see this mundane conformatism in boring aftermatch interviews. Nobody says anything interesting or revealing. They are all reading from the same script written by the PR department and designed to be safe and uncontroversial. Booorrinng. Sport is supposed to be an escape from the day to day drudgery of the real world not just more of the same. It’s a good debate BFR and ultimately there is no right or wrong. Just different opinions. I guess ours will never agree.
John, I actually agree with you on this. Totally. A while back I was commenting on here on Ronnie O’Sullivan and how I love his ‘f.u.’ attitude and outrageous talent. All I’m saying is that in the modern day, these guys are being phased out for clones and mini-me’ s. It is sad and wrong and I agree with you on this. But sadly, the reality is different.
Footballing Mavericks…
Stan Bowles
Tony Currie
Robin Friday
Frank Wortington
Alan Hudson
Yes all brilliant players but all won f***all.
Add Matt LeTissier, RSS. Outrageous talent.
Brilliant player a magician worth the entrance fee alone but again won nothing.
Some selective cherry picking of non winning mavericks.
Here’s a few mavericks that won plenty.
George Best
Charlie George
Peter Osgood
Rodney Marsh
Eric Cantona
Vinny Jones
Zlatan Ibrahimovic
Paul Gascoine
Maradona
Vinny Jones?
😂
Maverick?
More a football players labourer.
Vinny Jones won the FA Cup. (1988) Captained the Welsh National side. Squeezed Gascoines b*lls during a match. Respect !
Unai 58.54%
Respect! 😉
Selective?
More subjective.
But by what yardstick does one measure a player as a maverick?
Personally don’t believe that – Best – Osgood – Gascione and Jones (that one’s beyond the pale) fall into that category but then it’s all about opinions.
It’s an interesting debate regarding the current style of play adopted by Emery. Initially I admit that I found it dull to watch but just like the players themselves, I feel like I’m being educated in the reason for the possession, even if it’s backwards and sideways.
The sole purpose is to let the ball do the work and tire the opposition in having to chase to win the ball back. It’s a case of slow, slow, boom!
Remember the old days when the goalkeeper could pick the ball up from a back pass? That was also dull to watch. Martinez now has to play the ball with his feet and his confident in his ability to pass when being chased down. True it gives me heart palpitations but we do seem to be eliminating the errors.
Emery is a year into his time at Villa and is now getting the credit he deserves. Our squad isn’t the biggest partly because of injuries but if we keep in the top 6 till January, then I’m confident our owners will bring in quality reinforcements.
I was surprised by our ‘hammering’ of West Ham and bit by bit I’m starting to believe again. After 13 years of underachieving, could we be a team to shake up the big boys? As Kevin Keegan said, I would love it if we beat them, love it! How great is it to see the likes of Sky and it’s biased pundits squirm as Villa and Brighton upset the establishment.
Long may it continue.
UTMV!
The way I see it is we do keep the ball but instead of making the same backwards or sideways balls like before, now we probe. It doesn’t take long for one of our players to find the most unexpected killer pass that none of us saw coming. It’s like watching a geometric puzzle coming to fruition. Astounding at times. Yes the first 20 minutes or so against Spam, we were finding our feet and rhythm. Them we moves up a gear or three…I was never bored.
On Jack, like the revitalised Spuds, we were too reliant on one player and now both Villa and Spuds are ‘Teams’. And i don’t wish to be detrimental to Jack or Harry who are both great players but it’s about balance.
I’m truly excited about January as i think we’ll see a couple more great additions to the squad. Usually teams get a new manager bounce, but Emery’s continuation this season is again astonishing so he’ll be backed once again considering the loss of so many first teamers.
Lovely stuff!!!!!
Badger, John – if Emery suddenly morphs into Sherwood and we start playing ‘buccaneering’ football with risky long passes or cross field balls – by the way is that hoof ball – and start losing, dropping down the table which I believe is what will happen; will you applaud or complain?
As an example I cite Brighton (who you might hold up as an example in your arguments) and who we dismantled 6-1 or Spam 4-1 by playing through their lines.
Now, against Spam we lost control in midfield for around 10 minutes after they scored – giving the ball away on a number of occasions – and looked very vulnerable; in fact before Watkins superb goal they looked the more likely to score.
Football is about scoring goals – 17 in four home matches – and all sport is surely about winning?
I think I’d like to stick with the Emery we have.
I wasn’t going to enter this debate well in fact I’m not but what I will say is the stats speak for themselves. Any manager with a win % exceeding 58% is (Imo) doing something right.
Boring? I think not. Boring is getting spanked week in week out, playing with any identity and that was AVFC not so long back.
Maybe a bit of a reality check is in order?
We come so far in such a short time so maybe some are suffering with cognitive dissonance?
OK, I’m repeating myself (again…): If anyone wants to recall what ‘boring’ was really like, just think of any game under McLeish or Lambert.
It really wasn’t that long ago, and we usually lost, as well!
Remember McNose against Man ure?
McNose’s master plan was to park the bus in a feeble effort to stall Man U’s creative juices but whoops the plan goes awry after a mere 20 minutes when they unforgivably put a spanner in this work of footballing genius and score.
Then the worst 70 minute borefest of non-football possible ever witnessed at VP unfolds.
Now that’s boring football.
I’m not quite old enough to remember but my brother who is 10 years older than me says that if it wasn’t for injuries, Keith Leonard would have been a great striker for us. If anyone remembers him on here, it would be good to hear other opinions on him.
His misfortune lead to Andy Gray signing for us and he turned out alright!
Leonard was an excellent footballer and the first player I remember who had a huge throw in that could reach well into the penalty area. Very exciting.
I do remember him (although not the long throw) in a brilliant combination with Brian Little, especially the season that we were promoted back into the 1st Division.
You’ve also jogged my memory about another superb player from that same period who had his career cut short early; John Robson, who was daignosed with MS at the age of 28 and had to stop playing.
Keith was a terrific forward and, from memory, was quite a physical unit. Unfortunately, he was one of the very many exciting young players who got injured and never really recovered from it. For those who think that modern players are mollycoddled, they should remember the thousands of young hopefuls in years past who got crocked at an early age because of small squads, too much football and no medical science.
Thankfully things are better today in that respect.
1874, agree completely. You mention “too much football” – how true.
In that 1974/75 season there were 42 league games in the 2nd Division, we also played (only) 3 FAC games, but on the way to winning the League Cup we also played 10 games (because of replays and 2-legged semi-finals).
That’s 55 competetive matches, and in those days the season itself was not spread out through 10+ months of the year as it is now. Looking back now, I seem to remember Villa games almost every Wednesday night throughout the season, although that may just be a distorted memory on my part!
Add to that the state of most pitches, especially by the time you got to the winter-proper, and it’s quite amazing that many players did actually manage to have lengthy careers at all.